"The
day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme
Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with
the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
~ Thomas Jefferson, 1823
Please note that this is a look at the
passages in question minus much of the heavy backing historical
context. I had originally planned on including such but length
became an issue (over 30 pages). Generally I “debate” in an
online format where brevity is an issue (ie. knowing the
adversary or apologist most likely will not read more than a paragraph before
discounting what is posted). With that notion in mind, I have geared
what is presented to fit that format of presentation in bite sized
bits.
This is a work in progress (and subject to
change), IOWs as I learn new things or a point becomes clarified, I
attempt to incorporate that new knowledge. None of what is written
is original in scope as I have taken what I have learned and
presented it in a fashion that is suitable for me and my endeavors. I have included a longer version of my thoughts just for yhe hell of it because I'm bored.
A favorite among
those that believe is the claim that prophecy within the bible has
been fulfilled. In prophecy fulfillment they see evidence of God's
direct involvement in the writing of the Bible. The over reaching
issue, the prophecies make very vague predictions so all kinds of
events could occur that would "fulfill" them, foreseeing
the future doesn't necessarily prove divine guidance.
One assumption, I
will be working from - new covenant scriptures (NT) define how the
old covenant scriptures (OT) are fulfilled in them; or so I am told.
Initial posting and my response. I'm so sick of some theistic garbage in response to Hawking's death:
I was not expecting a response but got one. Decide to roll with it!!
I am not sure as to what prophecy you
are referring to, so I am going to assume that you are speaking of
the alleged foretelling of a Jewish Messiah figure.
Now based on that assumption, I have difficulty "accepting"
what was spoke of in regards to this Christ figure as a fulfillment
of OT prophecy. The sole fact that the NT books
(specifically the 3 synoptic plus John) were not written until 40-150
years after his alleged death and resurrection makes this difficult. (Note::
I am well aware that chronologically Paul's writings – for example
Galatians 4:4 (ca 50 CE) - precede those of the gospels – Mark then
Matthew.) Bearing in mind, as well, it
wasn't until the 3rd-5th centuries that the NT canon was adopted.
(Even then it was not a completely settled issue.) IOWs, the NT was
cobbled together long after its purported events and full of
improvised attempts to make things come out right.
1] Upon
contextual analysis Isa 7:14, to which many refer to as supporting
the notion of the virgin birth, shows flaws. Specifically mentioned,
Matt 1:23 where it was claimed that an angel's announcement to Joseph
that his betrothed wife Mary would give birth to a child conceived by
the Holy Spirit was done to fulfill a prophecy spoken by Isaiah:
"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and
they shall call his name Immanuel." (FYI:: The name
Yeshua/Jesus does
not mean Immanuel).
Ignoring the
“almah” vs “bethulah” debate for a moment, in the original
context Isaiah made this statement as a sign to Ahaz, king of Judah,
that an alliance recently formed against him by Rezin, the king of
Syria, and Pekah, the king of Israel, would not succeed.The context shows (cf. 2 Kings 15:29-30 and 2 Kings
16:9) that this so-called prophecy was
made not to foretell the birth of Jesus some 700 years later but the
birth of a child to that time and that situation.
What is bizarre
concerning the use of this passage, none of the other gospel writers
in any way related Jesus' birth to Isaiah's prophecy. A rather
strange thing to leave out, that this "prophecy"
would have been treated with silence by three "inspired"
writers who recorded the life of Jesus. Only Matthew mentioned it,
and that is the sum total of the proof we have that Jesus's birth
fulfilled Isaiah's "prophecy".
This interpretation is well document and textually supported by numerous scholars and theologians.
2] As noted, Isa 7:14 contains the
verse in question. “Almah” does not carry the connotation that
said virgin would be a virgin at the time of birth (or forever in
regards to the RCC notion of perpetual virginity).
“Almah”
(young woman of
marriageable age) was
used in such passages as Gen 24:43 where reference to the sexual
purity of the woman wasn't necessarily intended. There
is no implicit reference to the young woman’s virginit.
New
International Version
See,
I am standing beside this spring. If a young woman comes out to draw
water and I say to her, "Please let me drink a little water from
your jar,"
New
Living Translation
See,
I am standing here beside this spring. This is my request. When a
young woman comes to draw water, I will say to her, "Please give
me a little drink of water from your jug."
New
American Standard Bible
behold,
I am standing by the spring, and may it be that the maiden who comes
out to draw, and to whom I say, "Please let me drink a little
water from your jar";
NET
Bible
Here
I am, standing by the spring. When the young woman goes out to draw
water, I'll say, "Give me a little water to drink from your
jug."
New
Heart English Bible
look,
I am standing by this spring of water. Let it happen, that the maiden
who comes forth to draw, to whom I will say, "Give me, I pray
you, a little water from your pitcher to drink,"
GOD'S
WORD® Translation
I'm
standing by the spring. I'll say to the young woman who comes out to
draw water, "Please give me a drink of water."
JPS
Tanakh 1917
behold,
I stand by the fountain of water; and let it come to pass, that the
maiden that cometh forth to draw, to whom I shall say: Give me, I
pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher to drink;
“Bethulah”
(virgin) signified a woman who was sexually pure; this was the word
used in such passages as Deut 22:13-24 (NIV) where sexual purity was
obviously under consideration.
13
If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14
and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this
woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her
virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall
bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16
Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage
to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and
said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is
the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall
display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders
shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred
shekels[a] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father,
because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall
continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s
virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her
father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to
death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being
promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the
evil from among you.
22
If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man
who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil
from Israel.
23
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and
he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of
that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was
in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he
violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among
you.
If, then, Isaiah
had meant to imply that the child in his prophecy would be
miraculously conceived, he would have surely used the Hebrew word
that unequivocally meant virgin. I'm sorry, but there is nothing
particularly amazing about an unmarried female giving birth to a
child. (“Almah”
appears in various forms in the Hebrew Bible seven times - Gen 24:43;
Exod 2:8; Is 7:14; Ps 68:26; Pr 30:19; SoS 1:3, 6:8). “Bethulah”
on five occasions throughout Isa - Is 23:4,12, 37:22, 47:1, 62:5)
As an example,
Proverbs 30:18-19 (NIV) is translated:
There
are three things that are too amazing for me, four that I do not
understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a
rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a
maiden.
It would seem
problematic to substitute "virgin" in this case. It's
hard to call Mahershalalhashbaz the son of the "almah"
-- his mother had already given birth, and the word "almah",
even though not strictly requiring virginity, does heavily emphasize
sexual innocence.
One must
remember, the LXX was completed by 132 BCE, Matthew
(and also Luke 1:26-35), where written over 70 years after the
supposed birth. By the time Matthew wrote (880 CE) he passed along a
flaw in translation. (The Septuagint employed the Greek word
parthenos, which means "virgin," although the term "neanis",
which corresponds better to "'almah", was available.) When the
Christians began proselytizing in the Greek-speaking world and Matthew was written, predictions of Jesus' birth were
sought in the LXX; thus, in Matt.
1:18-23, the citation from Isaiah 7:14 is from the LXX, not the
Hebrew text.
3] Bear in mind
that according to Jewish tradition, no Jew claims Isa 7:14-16 (NIV)
is prophecy concerning Jesus:
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a
sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call
him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows
enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the
boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land
of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
(in fact see
Sanhedrin 43a in the Babylonian Talmud, as some believe Jesus was a
false prophet leading the Jews away from their religion*) referring
instead to Isa 8:1-4 (NIV).
The Lord
said to me, “Take a large scroll and write on it with an ordinary
pen: Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.”2 So I called in Uriah the priest and
Zechariah son of Jeberekiah as reliable witnesses for me. 3 Then I
made love to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a
son. And the Lord
said to me, “Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. 4 For before the boy
knows how to say ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of
Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king
of Assyria.”
Returning to the
context provided by Isaiah, it becomes clear that the child
(Mahershalalhashbaz) in question is to be born as a sign to Ahaz (not
some 700+ yrs later). In Isa 8:3-4, a prophetess gives birth to a
son--Maher-shalal-hash-baz--who is clearly described as the
fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. It wasn't until
Christianity that the claim of Messianic prophecy took hold. It is a
blatant reinterpretation of OT texts by Christians who suddenly found
all kinds of prophecies after the fact
(Note: There are some who also propose Hezekiah as a fulfill-er
of this alleged prophecy (2K 18:1-12). There is weak scriptural
support for this. )
4] For final consideration, what is so
special about being born with a "silver-spoon" in ones
mouth? Both the Greek and Romans where fond of their great leaders (Alexander,
Augustus, Plato for example) being born of a virgin. Consider
as well that within Hindu, Egyptian mythology and culture, there are
narratives with similarities to the virgin birth. This is not some
new or even original notion.
- The Greek deity
Adonis was born of the virgin Myrrha
- Mars, the Roman
God of war, fathered twins Romulus and Remus; their mother was
Silvia, a Vestal Virgin
- The Egyptian God
Horus was born of the virgin Isis; as an infant, he was visited by
three kings.
- In India the birth of Krishna,
one of the incarnations of Vishnu, and the second person within the
Hindu Trinity. In one story, Krishna was said to have been born to
his mother Devaki while she was still a virgin
As
for your use of Zechariah. Not one commentary pre 1945 even mention the use of nuclear weapons. It
is a modern conception 2700+ yrs intervening.
Seriously, does God need man’s modern
inventions to accomplish His will during the end times? If so he is
a weak god and fails to fulfill what is prophesied throughout
Revelation.
I may tackle this mess in another posting!!
_____
*Like the Bible as a whole debate among Talmudic scholars is hotly contested. What is clear, there is no concept of a Messiah "fulfilling the law" to free the
Israelites from their duty to maintain the mitzvot in Judaism. Contrary to what is taught in Christianity. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and 18:18-22, specifically lays out the considerations one must take to be a prophet or speak for God.
